What is the Democratic Party's responsibility? [Thread Closed]

After reading A's post on KOS and after reading Justing's post regarding Dole/Hagan/Neal...and more importantly, the comments, I started to wonder what it takes to get people upset enough to do something about the Democratic Party, it's leadership, and the Democrats we've elected who don't represent our interests.

One comment particularly caught my eye This one and this particular statement .....

This is what ideologues don't understand. You run on principle when at all practical, but in some cases it's not and you have to take what you can get. Heath Shuler votes more in your favor than any Republican ever would. Either take what you can from him or get nothing

(emphasis mine) REALLY FROSTED ME...and here's why:

Most of the people who visit BlueNC are smarter than your average bear, and are aware when their own views do or do not represent the views of a majority of others. Hence, although they/we may get frothed over the way our congress-critters vote on an issue now and then, we understand we're not always going to be satisfied on every issue. Conversely, there are some things we think all Americans should hold sacred, or are otherwise so important and so abundantly and fundamentally important to our nation that no one...regardless of party... should be playing politics with these concepts.

In my mind, these include respecting and defending our Constitution and Bill of Rights, maintaining the appropriate balance of power between the three branches of our government, enforcing our laws and the rule of law and common decency, ensuring our food and medical supplies and ingredients are safe, making sure our borders, ports, and transportation systems are safe and secure, maintaining strong, nimble and well equipped armed forces recruited from, and representative of, all socio-economic classes of our citizenry, and properly caring for those, and their families, who have given of themselves in service to our nation. And, these things should be done in a fiscally responsible manner that strengthens rather than weakens our nation.

Yes, there are other things currently also very important...but to me, the above is the core from which we build solutions to our other problems.

Now, best I can tell, my Congressman hasn't done much to consistently support those concepts and has often torn down those core values with his votes. (The same is true of our Senators.) You can decide about your own critter.

Further, the Democratic Party hasn't stood on principle in longer than I can remember. My county party refused to vote on a resolution that would have criticized a certain elected state legislative representative who is obviously swimming in the sewer. Jim Black operated freely for years while the party knew about and essentially ignored his corruption. Neither the District or State Party has, to my knowledge, taken exception with the Democrats that voted to gut our Constitution and the Geneva Conventions, nor has anyone in the Party confronted any of these folks about how our veterans are being treated. Rule of Law? Phfttt! Balance of power? Phftttt! Secure Borders? Safe Food and Medicine? Phfttt...phfttt...phfttt!

And, not trying to take it out of context, you tell me/us that we should "Either take what you can from him or get nothing" ??? Excuse Me?

Either the Democratic Party confronts and resolves these issues with their elected representatives, or it isn't a party worth supporting. It's more important to fill the seats we win with good people than to win every seat.

(Schumer and Feinstein will likely prove that point next week when they vote to confirm a man as AG whom, if you were to believe his testimony, you'd also have to believe he hasn't read a newspaper in over two years.)

That's my two cents...and I'm not happy.


I'm having the same angst, Stan.

A friend accused me of being "disloyal" today. Talk about getting frothed. It's a good thing I'm basically a pacifist or I would have punched him in the face with a roll of nickels in my hand. People think this is all about the US Senate race for me, which couldn't be farther from the truth. That's just the last straw in a continuing series of bullshit moves which you have so nicely summarized.

I don't know what it all means. I'm not happy either.


An Army of Stan

Stan, you're much more eloquent expressing the reasons I'm outside of the Party than I've been capable of. Thanks Anglico for front paging.

I'm to the point that I would accept a %95 concurrence of Dem votes to the Republicans (maybe it already is), if the other %5 protected our Constitutional rights, got us the hell out of our current foreign entanglements and enforced the rule of law - specifically by impeaching the top half of the current madministration and arresting the bottom half for being enablers.

Pretty sad it has come to that....

there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but he must do it because Conscience tells him it is right. MLK,Jr. to SCLC Leadership Class

there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but he must do it because Conscience tells him it is right. MLK,Jr. to SCLC Leadership Class

I don't know which is best

I rejoined the Democratic Party in 2005 after being gone for 19 years and I am starting to wonder if anything changed in the years I was gone. I left the party because, as a college student I ran for county commission and instead of backing a student, the local Democratic Party endorsed my Republican opponant.

I now see more and more of our Democratic "leadership" rolling over and letting the Republicans do as they please so basically nothing has changed in 19 years.

BUT on the other hand, I have seen first hand how independents and third party members are emasculated under our present system, not only in NC but nationwide. I was a national co-chair of the Green Party in 2004-05 and you would not believe the road blocks we encountered while trying to get our presidential candidate on the ballot. North Carolina is ranked as one of the toughest states for third parties to get on the ballot. Hell, we even had to petition to get our write in votes counted.

So, I don't know the answer as to whether it is easier to change the party from outside or inside but I do know it was easier to run for re-election in 2006 as a Dem than it was to run for election as an Independent/Green in 2002.

"jump in where you can and hang on"
Briscoe Darling to Sheriff Andy

That they backed a repug over you

doesn't surprise me.

Out west in 04 the main Democratic Party peeps wouldn't back liberal Patsy Keever. Initially, she'd get a great response in a county and then call back to set up more visits and they wouldn't speak to her.

The district chair, now Heath Shuler's district director put the yard sign of every other democratic candidate in his yard but not Patsy's. We'll never be sure if it was her vagina or her progressive politics. Maybe a combo? His wife is county commish who is in bed politically with the minority Republicans. It's all pretty disgusting.

News of the 10th district: See Pat Go Bye Bye,

Thanks DQ...

I visited the blog he/she pointed to and saw it was considerably right of center.
SE NC Dems

Stan Bozarth

Pay attention

I think that's their first responsibility and they are not living up to that at all. As I posted on another thread earlier, the Feinstein/Schumer tragedy has hurt me badly. I go through these cycles of hope dashed by despair and it is really starting to annoy me.

The Feinstein/Schumer support for the new 'Torture Boy' is the perfect example of why most folks don't see a shred of difference between the parties. It is the perfect example of why people don't vote. It is the perfect example of why people turn the page on politics without reading further the into the differences between the parties. It makes me sick.

Schumer is wearing out his welcome in my home.

The whole fiasco that has been the NC Senate campaign, now this. What does it require for the Democrats in the Senate to stand up for our principles? The truth is that Schumer thinks if they just sit back and don't make waves we'll win the White House and Senate seats because the country is going to hell in a handbasket (in my opinion).

One of the pitfalls of childhood is that one doesn't have to understand something to feel it. - Carlos Ruiz Zafon

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.


I'm caught between FeinTortureMer and SchuTortureStein.

Where does the trail of tears begin?

The other day I was speaking to the head of the local Dems. I told him I was a child of the Vietnam era and my politics have been shaped by that tragedy. I also asked him if he thought we'd ever be debating if torture was acceptable U.S. policy in his lifetime - because I never thought it would come to this.

He said no, "but why hold the local party responsible?" - it was the national Dems that have stood by while the madministration discusses the difference between simulated drowning, shocking genitalia and pulling out fingernails.

Where does the trail of tears begin?

there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but he must do it because Conscience tells him it is right. MLK,Jr. to SCLC Leadership Class

there comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular, but he must do it because Conscience tells him it is right. MLK,Jr. to SCLC Leadership Class

All politics is local.

We don't have to hold our local dems accountable for those tragedies, but there is plenty to talk to them about. The state dems? Definitely accountable.

One of the pitfalls of childhood is that one doesn't have to understand something to feel it. - Carlos Ruiz Zafon

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.

The simple fact that Robert mentioned above is the thing that is

most upsetting to me at this time. SO much has been done by the current administration to undermine the credibility and the Constitution of this once great nation and they Democratic leadership just wants to hang back, do nothing that might get them in trouble and wait out the storm until the elections next November.

ONE MORE YEAR? Another year of this black-hearted politics affecting our nation and the world by extension and the Dem's are going to sit back and do as little as possible, hoping beyond hope that American's will see them as being the lesser of two evils? What the hell kind of plan is that? I'll tell you what kind of plan it is. It's a losers plan. These guys and gals need to wake up. The Democrat's could steamroll the Repbulic's if they would just get off their asses, take a few chances (you know, like defund the war, stop George Bush and his 24% popularity in his tracks) etc. BUT NO. We'll just ride it out and slink in through the back door. I'm ashamed.

North Carolina. Turning the South Blue!

North Carolina. Turning the South Blue!

Thanks to all of you for your comments..

I was tired and had to bag it last night after posting this.

Robert...I agree all politics are local, but I DO think we need to hold our local party folks responsible for speaking out on all the issues...state, local, national...to all our elected representatives. The Party has to be something more than a PR mechanism and source of funding/labor to elect folks. The Party also has to stand for and fight for the principles that made this nation great. That means telling elected officials they won't be supported if they can't/won't represent their constituents and the ideals we work towards. In fact, I feel we should tell them they're not even going to be on the Democratic Party ballot.

I know McIntyre and Etheridge have some "constituents" in their districts that are making a bundle off the farm subsidy programs. These folks are already rich beyond most folks wildest dreams. Yet, many family farmers struggle,,,and there are few funds available to pay for wildlife habitat conservation and so on.

Yet, these two "Democrats" continue to fight efforts to really do something meaningful about capping subsidy payments.... paid for by YOU and ME.
This may not be a great example...but I think it fits. No one can tell me these corporate farmers welfare is in the best interests of a majority of these critter's constituents. Yet. best I can tell, our individual efforts to change this are ignored.
The PARTY could make it happen.

I know this isn't a "core" issue...but it's an example of the unbridled excesses and unresponsiveness of two of our elected Dems. Meanwhile...no COOL...No restoration of Habeas, no stop to torture...and another AG who will further corrupt our justice.

SE NC Dems

Stan Bozarth

What is the Democratic Party's Responsibility?

Relative to the U.S. Congress the Democrats need to remember who they are and what they represent as Democrats. The devisive "clubs" they form in Congress do not serve the best interest of the People, or the Party. "Blue Dogs", Hispanic Caucus", "Black Caucas", all Democrats and none focusing on the real, and desperate need of the Party; Unity.

Unity of purpose, Unity of vision, Unity of direction, leadership and values.

We should not disparage the Caucus groups in Congress, so don't get me wrong. The motivation in the forming of most caucus groups is honorable and of good intent, but often later derailed by narrow and exclusive pursuits and focus.

ALL Democrats believe in Human rights, Individual liberty, wise financial stewardship, helping the disadvantaged and poor, being the example to the world of the power of freedom and service to others, ensuring a viable, well equipped and advanced Military, universal health care, control of government intrusion into the privacy of U.S. Citizens, abolution of torture and many other issues.

Democrats need to act like Democrats.

In supporting President Bush and the Republican "anti-Democratic" agenda, many Democrats in Washington feel that they are bridging the gap between the very polarized Parties in our Congress and Senate, but they are mistaken. These Democrats, acting in real sincerity, but being sincerely wrong.

Bridging the gap between DEMOCRATS who disagree is the wining strategy. Uniting the Party is our path to a greater and more free America.

I know this is not where you were going Stan, but I saw it as a good opportunity to vent.


Marshall Adame
2014 U.S. Congress Candidate NC-03

Well said, Marshall


"They took all the trees and put them in a tree museum Then they charged the people a dollar 'n a half just to see 'em. Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone? They paved paradise and put up a parking lot."

Yes, well said.

Particularly about unity and acting like Democrats. Hopefully you and Larry Kissell will join Brad Miller, Watt, and Price in Congress. Unfortunately, that still leaves us with at least two or three NC Dem's in Congress who are likely to be real fly's in the ointment.

The PARTY has to take a stand on core issues. I could really get energized if the PARTY put some folks like this on notice and said either get with the program or you're on your own....no money, no support, no help, no nothing...and encouraged good people to run and put them out of office.

I'm not suggesting the Party tell anyone how to vote on every issue...nor am I suggesting that there might not be good reasons to vote against something that many Dems would support. S-CHIP, for example, is something we all could support. At the same time, the method of funding this $35B rxpenditure is counter to every concept of fairness. 20% of the population shouldn't be forced to pay for this.

Anyway, I get your drift.

SE NC Dems

Stan Bozarth

You sound like a petulant four year old

throwing a tantrum. Your post ids so full of exaggerations and unsupprted accusations as to be mostly unworthy of comment. So the Democratic party in control of one half one one third of the govnerment (the senate is basicalyy a push w/o 60 votes)
is supposed to sprinkle its magic fairy dust and solve all the probblems wrought by 6 years of republican control.

The post about Shuler was 100% correct. Shuler represents the 11th and guess what? Shuler's constituents ain't like you. I would much rather have Shuler's vote 70-80% of the time than Taylor's vote 0% of the time.

I suggest you read the NCDP Plan of Organization and Robert's rules of Order. It sounds like a knowledge of both could have saved you some of the troubles you related.

Face it - the political landscape is different now post 9-11. Young people who should be in the streets over the war are too busy messing their ipods. Without a visible anti war movement and nothing but a few bloggers and editoials writing about the assault on the Constitution it's a bit difficult for Dem leadership to know when to play what few cards it does hold.
The Democratic Party is the only group that has a chance to undo all the damage done by the Bushies. But remember those damn elephants have been parading all over the country for 6 years; and they will leave quite a mess. The stronger the Dem are, the better and quicker they will be able to clean up the messes you mentioned.

It would be nice if you and others would save your ire for the NeoCons that have caused our troubles, not the folks doing what they can to fix them.

Person County Democrats

I actively oppose gerrymandering. Do you?

The political landscape is different post 9-11

because mindless Americans bought George Bush's fearful view of the world - and Democrats across the board are still enabling it.

Your view of "leadership" is bizarre. If I take your comments seriously, I'd have to conclude that Congress is the petulant four year old, needing to be poked and prodded by We the People to do its job and defend the Constitution.

I beg to differ. And just to be clear, it doesn't take a filibuster proof majority in the Senate to do what needs doing. It takes one committed Speaker of the House who would put her ass on the line for the soul of our country instead of playing political games. Joe Hackney did it in the Raleigh to shut down the so-called Defense of Marriage amendment. Speaker Pelosi is NOT doing it in Washington. She and the rest of the Dems have capitulated again and again and again to Mr. 23%.

Without a visible anti war movement and nothing but a few bloggers and editoials (sic) writing about the assault on the Constitution it's a bit difficult for Dem leadership to know when to play what few cards it does hold.

Are you kidding? What more "direction" do they need? None. They need political courage, which is in mighty short supply.

If I thought for a minute that people like McIntyre and Etheridge were doing what they can to "fix" things, I might buy some of your rhetoric. But they are not.

Finally, you are off base in your criticism of Stan. You're talking to a guy who has been one of the stalwarts of Democratic party organization in his community longer than most people around this site have been alive.

I am replying to his post.

I agree that Pelosi and Reid leave something to be desired, but the OP was condemmning the entire Democratic party. He held it responsible for the messes of the bushies, most of which was wrought immediately after 9-11.
So then he is condemning Miller, Meek, Price, Murtha, Kinnaird and a host of other good people who bust their butts to try to bring about progressive changes as Democrats.
So he is going phhtpht to S-CHIIP and the Phhttptp to the minimum wage increase and pphhttp to Jack Murtha would took serious heat for his opposition to the war; he is going pphhpptth to Miler and Price who both spoke out against the war when in the monority. He si going ppphhtptp to Miller and Waxman who are digging through layers of elephant feces to bring the ignoble deeds of the bushies to light. He is going pphhhhtptp to the lobbying reform legislation.

If he has been around party politics then he should know how to get a resolution presented to a county convention and should know parliamentary procedures concerning same. He should know that any malfeasance regarding the blocking of such a resolution or any back rooms dealings such as D mentioned can be dealt with via the NCDP Plan of Organization.

I take offense at the general assault on my party. If he has specific gripes, fine let's hear them, but it is most unfair to lump all dems into the same pot.

Person County Democrats

I actively oppose gerrymandering. Do you?

I didn't read it that way, but I understand your point

and mostly agree with your underlying points. That said, I've supported more resolutions over the past 40 years than you can shake a stick at and I can't honestly tell what difference most of them have made.

Maybe I'm just a bit bummed out right now by the likelihood that our next attorney general will be another advocate for torture.

I think one of the worst things we can do

is expect a Democratic Congress to undo in less than a year the tragedies that BushCo has wrought. We have had significant accomplishments, and will have more. I think that Bush's public temper tantrums are evidence of that.

Waxman and Leahy are heroes, finally able to go in and look at the actual malfeasance of the administration. They can't work miracles. Miller is taking on the sub-prime lenders who have caused more problems in my area than any one realizes.

It pays to have (D)'s in the seat. Reid and Pelosi may leave something to be desired, but they're both damn sure better than Hastert, Delay, and Lott.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi

The political landscape is different

and I think that many of us often forget the value of being the majority party. We need more seats; we need a veto-proof majority so that S-CHIP fiascoes don't happen again.

And that's ultimately why I will remain a Dem, and continue to work for Dem candidates, because until Anglico gets his Blue party up, running, successful, and on the ballot in all 50 states, there is no other way I see to accomplish what needs to happen.

That said, I don't make contributions to candidates with whom I have foundational disagreements. I would never have donated to Heath Schuler, though if I lived in the 11th district, I would have voted for him. I do make donations to candidates who show me, through words or actions, that at the core, their priorities and values are the same as mine would be if I were the one in the seat, making the vote. When I do make donations, I don't expect that candidate to be beholden to me or my ideals in any way. That's why I think very carefully before I donate. (Especially because my couple hundred a year will make the difference in any election! HA!)

I don't expect Larry Kissell to be as liberal as David Price. The district he will represent is way different, and I expect him to represent the people who vote for him.

That also said - there is nothing in the NCDP plan of organization (fondly known in my house as the POO) that prevents anyone from speaking out against the Party. We don't operate on Robert's Rules on the board, and they are, in general, a pain in the ass when you're trying to have valuable discussion that will push the party forward.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi

Your comments make you the poster child for folks

who fail to read or understand and then attack.

No one said anything about fairy dust. I mentioned specifics that are easily proven...where those named had the opportunity to support our Constitution and the rule of law and human decency...and chose not to. or, where they had a chance to support their constituency and chose not to. It's a fact. DO i NEED TO QUOTE THE ROLE CALL VOTES FOR YOU? And, I carefully mentioned that I and others clearly understand our Congress-critters aren't always going to vote the way some of us thinks they should...and understood why that might be so.

Point out one exaggeration I made...or where I said PHFTTT to S-Chip.

You're behaving like a pompous ass. You don't want to confront and resolve the issues...you want to cram your beliefs/opinions down my throat.while defending the spineless behaviors of both the Party and many of it's elected representatives.

SE NC Dems

Stan Bozarth

You named three people in your OP

Schumer, Fienstien and Black and you use their actions to dismiss the whole Democratic Party and I'm the pompous @$$????

Exaggeation #1

the Democratic Party hasn't stood on principle in longer than I can remember

Murtha on Iraq, S-CHIP resubmission, MIller and Price on the floor of the House, Feingold most all the time, Kucinich et al etc. This is where you went ppphhttppt to dem action concerning SCHIP, by ignoring that principled stand. Not to mean that you went pphhtptp to the legislation itself.

Exaggeration #2

Jim Black operated freely for years while the party knew about and essentially ignored his corruption.

Proof? So you are saying that NCDP officers gave it a wink, wink and knowingly gave Black a pass? Does this include Jerry Meek?

Exaggeration #3

... gut our Constitution and the Geneva Conventions

I would say that the jury is still out on this, depending on 2008 elections and whether the Bushies hand over power. So far the Constituion has been mangled a bit, gutted seems an exaggeration. Now in Pakistan, that's a gutting. I guess that's a matter of degree and opinion.

Exaggeration #4

... nor has anyone in the Party confronted any of these folks about how our veterans are being treated.

The dems in Congress have passed legislation making improvements in the way vets are treated. Resolutions were passed by the SEC supporting vets and condemning the lack of care as demonstrated by the Bushies. Still not what it could be but to say the Party has done nothing ....

Either the Democratic Party confronts and resolves these issues with their elected representatives, or it isn't a party worth supporting.

For every Schumer you can name I can name 10 Dems who are making a positive difference. The wholesale condemnation of the party is my principle objection. You admit that elected officials aren't going to vote the way you would want sometimes and that the Party is to blame? But then you get upset when they actually do vote in a way you don't approve of??? How about they vote with consideration for their constituents rather than being strong armed by party idealogues, whi by the way sounds a lot like how the other guys operate.

Person County Democrats

I actively oppose gerrymandering. Do you?

What's the point of this?

You're writing to a long-time party supporter who is really pissed off . . . for lots of good reasons . . . about the way things are going with the country and the Democratic party.

You may think he's exaggerating, but so are you. None of this is black or white, nothing ever is.

But Stan is saying that it looks like a dark shade of gray (I happen to agree with him) and you're trying to smack him around for not buying your goodness-and-light view of things?

Well guess what, you're having the exact opposite effect you're intending on both of us.

PS If you think the Democratic Party wasn't knee-deep in the Jim Black problem to the bitter end, you're delusional.

i think persondem makes some good points

I don't think it is fair to allow one person to vent frustrations and then call someone's response to those allegations pointless. You've done this a few times to a few members recently, including me. The OP made some unfounded allegations and unfairly, I think, extended the actions of a few Democrats to the whole party. PersonDem just asked for clarification on the OP's points. I think that's acceptable in an argument. Is this a place just to vent rage and frustration or is it a place for debate and dialogue?

But back to the topic. Democrats have done some amazing things in the last 11 months. I'm proud of my party. I'm also deeply frustrated my Schumer & Co's support of the AG nominee.

The thing is -

Everyone has made good points. It's frustrating as hell when you feel like you're running in sand trying to accomplish things, and some of the people who are supposed to be leading that race pour more sand down for you to run in.

OTOH, it's impossible to expect sand that has built up for 8 years to disappear in 11 months.

Like it or not, the Democratic Party is not homogeneous. We're not all liberal progressives; we're not all centrists. But we are the Party of the People, and it takes all of us - with our anger, our frustrations, our energy, and our enthusiasm, to put (D) fannies in seats so that we have that veto-proof majority. If the more conservative members of our party tend to vote with the (R) agenda from time to time, then we just have to put more (D)'s in seats so that even if a McIntyre or an Etheridge doesn't care as much about Children's Health Care as we would like, the bill will be safe.

Just my opinion.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi

well said


Persondem does make good points

however the original response to Stan was insulting....not a great way to start a dialogue.

Robin Hayes lied. Nobody died, but thousands of folks lost their jobs.

Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.


I'm not in charge of anything other than paying the bills here at BlueNC. I don't "allow" or disallow anything. I have my opinions, you have yours. We disagree on some, we agree on others. I'm not trying to stifle debate. I asked a serious question: What is the point of Persondem going ballistic on Stan? I didn't get it when it first happened, and I still don't.

Is this a place just to vent rage and frustration or is it a place for debate and dialogue?

This place is what you make it.

C'mon A

We all go ballistic from time to time.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi

I know.

And I'm one of the worst offenders. But hey, I'm working on it.

I never used the word allow

I'm all for disagreement and argument. I just don't like your habit of asking what the point is in questioning members when they accuse the party, its members, or elected officials. If you're going to put out an allegation, you better be willing to back it up.
The OP basically said that the NCDP was spinless. As an NCDP member, I take offense to that, personally. I think persondem does as well, judging by his tone.
I'll let persondem defend him(her)self, but I thought persondem made good points and Stan defended himself well.

You gotta start reading your own complaints

I don't think it is fair to allow one person to vent frustrations

Or maybe in your world a-l-l-o-w doesn't spell allow?

Just askin'.


Got me on that one. I think I was referring to the front paging of the rant when I said allow, but maybe I don't understand how things work here yet.
Still don't like the habit.

Um...you got a problem with what we promote

to the front page......you and me will have a good old fashioned come to Jesus real soon. I suggest you go on the attack less often, stop accusing members of the community and/or front page writers of libel/slander and get to know the site and its writers a little better before you even pretend you have enough credibility here to speak to what goes on the front page of this site.

Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

I wish I had your way with words

"If boiling people alive best served the interests of the American people, then it would neither be moral or immoral." Max Borders, Civitas Institute

i'm sorry i offended you

but you must have misunderstood me, I said that I didn't understand how things wound up on the front page.

In reply, Isabelabadone...

My post wasn't a rant or a vent. It was a statement of facts about the votes of my congressman (and on some issues, other NC Congressmen) and my feeling that he/they is not/are not representing either their constituents or the best interests of this nation. And I said I feel the Party has a responsibility to address these issues with those elected representatives and withdraw support if this type of behavior continues. I was also careful to point out that I didn't expect those representatives, or any representative, to always vote the way some of their constituents might think appropriate. I was speaking earlier to what I called "core issues."

I challenge you or "persondem" to show where any statement about the votes that I've mentioned are untrue, to point out any totally unfounded allegations, or for you to legitimately defend why any of these votes...or failures to take action, are in the best interests of our party, citizenry and nation. I have the records of the roll call votes.

Whether The Party is/was aware of Black and/or others is a matter of conjecture. Ultimately, since the Party is not a litigant in these affairs it isn't a matter of legal substance. Who knew what when is, however, reflective on the integrity of the party....and I'm one of those crazy folks who believes where there's enough smoke there's a fire...and the truth is these fires have been burning a long time and a lot of people HAD to look the other way if they say they didn't know. I can assure you that is the case in a specific instance here. I don't think the people in our state party are so stupid that they didn't know about Black.

I'm not sure what amazing things you think the Party has done in the past eleven months. Perhaps you could share that with us.

Finally, to both you and Pdem, I made my case factually. You may not agree with my conclusions or how I feel about those votes and situations. If you want to indulge yourselves in ad hominem attacks and name calling, help yourself. You've already created quite a negative first impression.
SE NC Dems

Stan Bozarth

Stan...my man

You've been more gracious than I. I just went and called her ignorant. :)

Robin Hayes lied. Nobody died, but thousands of folks lost their jobs.

Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

Thanks, Stan

I'm working on it. I will miss working the entire day at a poll for Mom tomorrow, but they have the polls covered for the most part. I hope all in Nanistan are doing well.

Robin Hayes lied. Nobody died, but thousands of folks lost their jobs.

Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.


From the image vaults:

Thanks Greg...

I'll use it soon...right after I get these piss-ants off my leg. :-)

SE NC Dems

Stan Bozarth

right on

I didn't have a big problem with your post. I had a problem with how a number of people attacked personDem for challenging your post.

I too am disappointed with a lot what's gone on in Washington. But I've also been proud of a number of things they've done. I'm no apologist, nor am I a bomb-thrower.

I'm furious over the AG hearings, I'm thankful over the min wage. I'm pissed about spying and I'm ecstatic over lowering college tuition.

I must disagree about the way the Dems have treated veterans. That's a specific problem I have with your post.

But overall, I'm with you buddy. I just didn't like how everyone ganged up on personDem. I also believe that he gave a number of specific examples where you exaggerated in your post.

You can take all you want out of context and twist it

however you see fit. Murtha is an unprincipled pork broker. I mentioned Schumer and Feinstein in passing and as examples of folks whose votes don't represent the people of their party. I never said anything about Miller or Price or Watt...all of whom I generally admire. Yes, I'm saying it's my opinion the NC Dem Party knew about Black and did nothing...just like they know about Wright and do nothing. .

You obviously have never served in the military in combat or you would have greater respect for the Geneva Conventions. You also apparently don't care that other human beings can be locked up by our government and never allowed to plea their case. You obviously think the jury is out on waterboarding or starving people while freezing them as being torture. What does it take?

You apparently think legislation without funding and/or enforcement means something. (Be it veterans treatment or a multitude of other examples...like COOL which was passed in 2002.)

I didn't say some Dem's weren't making a difference or didn't want to make a difference. I think I focused on those who are making it difficult for those who do want to do something and on the party apparatus that seems not to care what folks do after they're elected. .

I think you're so rabid you've lost your perspective.

Addenda: I get angry when my representative LIES to me.
Read this: LINK .
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Stan Bozarth

Next AG

Maybe I'm just a bit bummed out right now by the likelihood that our next attorney general will be another advocate for torture.

Maybe so he will be; maybe he won't. The thing is, he didn't answer. But that AG now has to answer to the Democrats on the Hill. I suspect there will be a bit more transparency than there was when we didn't have a Democratic majority. If the Republicans had won in 2006, we'd still have Alberto Gonzales, Karl Rove would still be in his position, and who knows - perhaps Scooter Libby would still be working at the White House.

Look at our strength, work with our strength, and never forget that we can throw the assholes out.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi