After watching the news and looking here on the web and reading the statements by Sen.Obama's former pastor, I have serious doubts about Sen.Obama's judgment.

Am I the only person on this blog that is outraged by that statement?

A man that desires to be President of these United States, and his pastor preaches from the pulpit, God damn America.
Sen. Obama knew this was coming but did nothing to deny it or refute it. When questions arose about Rev. Wright, Obama tried to pass it off as “just a member of the family that you don't always agree with." "Like an old uncle"

Well if my old uncle stood up at a family gathering and said “God DAMN America"
He would have a bloody nose before I threw his ass in the street.

If my pastor made such a statement in my church, I am sure that I would not be the first to the pulpit, to take him by the nap of the neck and the ass of his pants and throw him out front door.

And Rev. Wright's comments about Sen. Clinton, that she didn't know what it was about, that she hadn't been called a nigger. I admit that is true, but she has been called a bitch and a cunt and I really don't see much difference in the choice of language.

And then what about Mrs. Obama's comment about " this is the first time in my life I am proud of America" That has been spun and spun and spun by the Obama campaign. If she didn't mean it, why did she say it? And we are dealing with very smart people; both Sen. Obama and his wife are quite smart so what is the purpose of these comments, as they are not just misspeak.

And please stop comparing Sen. Obama to JFK.
When Sen. Obama has swam 5 miles from a burning PT boat to an island, while dragging a burned and broken comrade to shore, then you can compare him to JFK. JFK could give a beautiful speech, but he had steel in his spine. Beside John F. Kennedy, Sen.Obama is spineless for no man that aspires to be President of the United States would stand by and do nothing but make excuses while his pastor damned this nation.
In the words of his most famous speech, John Kennedy described himself,
I may have the quote little wrong but it went something like this
“Tempered by war, disciplined by a hard and bitter peace"

What has tempered and disciplined Sen. Obama?

I am sure that since I have spoken out against Sen. Obama, I will now be held up as another one of the bigots. A racist white male from the south.
Those that know me know better. Those that think so, go to that America that Rev.Wright wants God to damn.

If these are the true feelings of the people that Sen.Obama has surrounded himself with he is unfit to be President of the United States.


Of course there is.

There is a cliquishness here.

That's only natural, and it can and does impede objectivity. But that's one of the things that sets us apart from children—we can recognize our own loss of objectivity and work towards restoring it.

Speaking of cliquishness...my first-born male child made his debut here on this thread (I just found out at lunch today). The first one to find him wins a kewpie doll (I don't have any kewpie dolls, it's just a saying). :)

Holy Moly!

Geez, now it's "of course there is," but when I mentioned it, it could only be interpreted as being a potshot at poor James?????

Ya wanna work on that "restoring objectivity" thing?

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

Let's do it together!

Hold my hands and chant,

"Objectivity, objectivity,

that's the...thing I want for me,

la la la la"


But I'm going to start us off with a few rounds of

*om mani padme hum*

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

I can dig it.

And we can dedicate a few of the chants to the folks in Lhasa.


Steven or Stephen in GSO

Duh....you could have at least made it challenging. You could have named him Hannibal or something....... :D (sorry I didn't look at the name more closely.)

Robin Hayes lied. Nobody died, but thousands of folks lost their jobs.

Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.


Yeah, that wasn't very challenging.

Come on down, I need to welcome him properly. ;)

HLW, I haven't read enough


I haven't read enough of your posts to know if you're trolling or not, so let me just assume you made them in good faith.

You didn't cite the source of your phrase, "God damn America", and I haven't read much about Obama's pastor and don't know if he said it. Nor do I care: to me, freedom means that people can say that sort of thing.

This morning's NY Times does quote him as saying:

Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run, and accusing the United States of importing drugs, exporting guns and training murderers.

I lived on the South Side of Chicago, 1966-68, and seen how true this is (only the drug importation phrase is too vague for me to be sure if I agree). This kind of statement seems unexceptional.

Nor am I in the least offended by Michelle Obama's statement: it's the kind of thing that countless Americans have said when our country does the right thing after waiting too long. It's hyperbole, not a statement of fact. Get over it.

You fear a replay of 1972. I fear a replay of 1968. That year Gene McCarthy won the popular vote in the primary as I remember, but the party insiders gave the nomination to Hubert Humphrey. I wrote in McCarthy's name in the general election because I was so angry. We got Nixon. We got the reforms that brought on "1972". I was wrong, but if Obama is denied the nomination, it will happen again.

- ge

Besta é tu se você não viver nesse mundo

Besta é tu se você não viver nesse mundo

Re- I haven't read enought

going back to 1968,the convention was hyjacked, not by the smoke filled room but by President Johnson.
Bobby Kennedy had been killed less than 2 months before and that threw the convention into a mess. Rep. McCormick was the chairman of the convention. On Johnson's orders McCormick was removed and replaced by Rep. Dan Rostenkowski of Illinois after McCormick lost control of the convention.
The war in the streets between the war protesters and the Chicago police was not the result of the convention, but Mayor Daily run amouck.
It that nomination was stolen from McCarthy, the thief was Lyndon Johnson, not the democratic party. All of the Kennedy delegates were loose, and Johnson was trying to blunt the effect of George Wallace on the election by nominating Humphrey. It almost worked. Kennedy had kicked McCarthy around in the last primaries and his star was on the wain. By the convention he was damaged goods.

Many times we read into history what we want. And as the old saying goes " History is for the victors"

I am posting a very good article from the Washington Post, written by former Gov. Jim Hunt. I hope it might enlighten.Why the Superdelegate Idea Works

By Jim Hunt
Wednesday, February 27, 2008; Page A17

In presidential election years, Americans see the face of a political party most clearly in the personality, views and character of its presidential candidates. But a national political party is about more than just the president. Its senators and House members pass the nation's laws and budgets. Its governors lead the states. All must work together for progress in America.

I chaired the 1982 Democratic Party Commission on Presidential Nominations that created certain automatic delegates to the Democratic convention -- the "superdelegates." It was a good idea then, and it is still a good idea. The superdelegates will be crucial to Democrats winning the presidency in November and governing successfully for the next four years.

In creating superdelegates, the Democratic Party recognized the expertise that its top holders of public office have gained by running for office themselves. They are experts at winning. They know the issues. They are in a unique position to evaluate presidential candidates. They have a well-honed instinct for how candidates will be received in their own states and districts. In short, they can help the Democratic Party pick a winner.

But the superdelegates' value extends beyond the convention. If they play a role in picking the nominee, they will be more likely to campaign actively for the nominee in the general election.

I vividly remember the presidential election of 1972. George McGovern, a great senator and a war hero, had been nominated at a convention that included few top Democratic elected officials or regular party leaders. The Democratic Party that America saw on television that year and the platform it adopted seemed out of step with mainstream Democratic leaders. We felt the backlash in the elections.

I was a 35-year-old candidate for lieutenant governor that year. As a loyal Democrat, I attended every party rally I could in the fall. But it was right lonesome; I was often the only top statewide candidate there. Leading Democrats were so upset by what had happened in the nominating process and at the convention that they stayed away from party activities in droves. As a result, we got a licking in November. I won my race, but we lost the governorship for the first time in the 20th century. And Jesse Helms was elected that year to the U.S. Senate.

The Democratic Party has done a lot to make itself more democratic. We no longer have winner-take-all primaries and caucuses. We have made a special place for young people, women and minorities in our party organizations. The decision we made 26 years ago to include in the Democratic convention and nominating process our top elected officials and party leaders who get out the vote is consistent with that history.

I don't know how the superdelegates will vote this year. None of us will know until they actually vote in Denver, though I expect the superdelegates will split in a way not too different from the votes in the states and the nation as a whole.

But I do know that the Democratic Party needs these elected officials and party leaders to be involved. They need to help choose our nominee, shape our platform and return home from the convention invested in the nominee's campaign -- on fire to help the Democratic Party win in November.

Yet it's not enough just to win. We have to lead America, and we have to govern successfully. That is another reason our commission created the superdelegates. We saw what happened in Jimmy Carter's administration. President Carter was a good man with the best of intentions. But he came to Washington without a good working relationship with Democratic members of Congress, which played a big part in his administration's problems.

I am proud of both of the candidates who are headed toward our convention, as I was of my original choice, John Edwards. But we Democrats should not kid ourselves. This is going to be a close, tough election. John McCain, the likely Republican nominee, will have broad support. To win the general election, Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton will need every bit of enthusiasm and hard work they can get from Democrats across the country. Having the confidence and all-out efforts of governors, members of Congress and effective state party leaders may well provide the margin of victory.

Too often, the Democratic Party has been split between its grass-roots activists on one side and its elected officials and party leaders on the other. It's important to remember: We need both wings to fly.

The writer served four terms as governor of North Carolina, from 1977 to 1985 and from 1993 to 2001.

Obama reacted well, I think.

And the story isn't anything even REMOTELY new (though the MSM playing videos left and right IS.) Obama has gone on record, even last year when it first came out that his pastor had some extreme views on things, that he didn't agree with his stances.

We'll see if this story is still alive in a week (I doubt it will be.) If anything, I see it rallying more people to Obama's defense. Watching someone being dragged through the mud over comments that they didn't even make seems ridiculous, and much like the republicans gathered strength over the McCain/Lobbyist Times article, I see this as a chance for Obama supporters to make some noise about the noise (or just ignore it like they did last year.)

The big question is what is more important, rhetorical stances a candidate's pastor makes or a Bush-lite voting record (Clinton) and a "100s years in Iraq" imperial policy (McCain)? HLW clearly has the priorities straight.


They'll still think he's a Muslim and that going to a Christian church all his life is just cover for being a secret terrist.

The truth is that

Obama worships Xenu and will have Tom Cruise as his vice-presidential candidate, but shhhhh, don't tell anyone.

Welcome, young padwan.

Don't be ashamed to show yourself:

You sure were a snappy dresser back then. What are those, lederhosen? And little satin ballet shoes? :)

And for those who are wondering, yes, he still worships me, raising his little hands and cooing whenever he sees me. :)

Alright, this is way too much fun. He's going to shit a solid gold brick when he sees this, followed by some form of retribution (hopefully) just short of patricide.

Thanks for the cover earlier

I can see where I was out of line ... and where I wasn't. Gotta do a better job keeping those separated.

Cute picture.

Great pic!

Welcome, son of scharrison. :D

We promise we won't give you too hard a time because of your dad. We give your dad a hard time.

Robin Hayes lied. Nobody died, but thousands of folks lost their jobs.

Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

He's going to shit a solid

He's going to shit a solid gold brick when he sees this, followed by some form of retribution (hopefully) just short of patricide.

I'll just be nice and say "nice haircut, Showwalter..."

Heh heh :)

You got me. And I can't even really claim "it was the style back then" because the lady who cut my hair (every six months) was always arguing, "I can do so much with this if you'll let me try."

That's not me folks, it's a snapshot from the movie "Wet, Hot American Summer", which is hilarious.

speaking of judgement

It seems really funny to me to be questioning Obama's judgment when your own candidate voted for the worst foreign policy decision in decades.
She said she didn't vote for war, yet the title of the bill she voted for was "Authorization to use U.S. Armed Forces in Iraq".
Almost 4000 soldiers are dead so far, not to mention tens of thousands of Iraqi's.
So yes, please question the judgment of our candidates.

of course

Why do you think I've been supporting Obama ever since he announced he was going to run? I've never been an Edwards supporter, even though I like a lot of what he was saying.
My original decision to pick Obama over Edwards was exactly because of the war vote. Since then I've found numerous other reasons to pick Obama over any other candidate, but my original decision was based on the whole Iraq war issue.

of trolls and peace

first, an apology: when i logged on last night and saw this post, i wasn't gonna touch it. it was late, i was tired, and experiences on other forums led me to think that the person who wrote this was probably just someone out to stir up trouble (believe me, there are democratic forums where republican trolls go to start fights, and it's never pretty). i already listed in a previous comment the things that led me to that conclusion, so i won't reiterate here. when hlw got snarky and snippy with the first dissenting comment (a comment that, to me, seemed to be an honest attempt to point out that hey, the candidate in question has already responded to this scandal), i took it upon myself to post my trusty troll graphic, a tool i have used many times in many forums. it means "do not feed the troll," and it basically is a signal that someone's out to get tempers riled. after reading everything here, it's clear to me that the spectrum of political opinions on this site is much, much broader than i'd at once thought, and i not only apologize to hlw and any others that were offended by my comment, i apologize for the comment itself. by doing what i did last night, i took part in something that i'm trying my hardest to avoid (and get others to avoid): in-party bickering. nothing i posted last night did anything to contribute to the discussion, and i actually could have been considered a troll myself.

but look at what's happened here...what are we doing, folks? do we really expect to win in november by driving wedges in between ourselves and making our party so much weaker by tearing each other down? if you can't make logical, fact-backed arguments against the opposing candidate, if the best you can do is toss around unfounded rumors, talking points, spin and personal attacks, you may as well be on fox news or ann coulter's quick dial. we're hurting ourselves here. all of this fighting is just distracting us while john mccain courts the moderates and undecideds who are all getting sick of the constant bickering and ugly politics of the democratic party. don't believe me? check the poll numbers that are showing mccain's odds against hillary AND obama getting better and better. it's not because he's the best choice for president. i believe it's because more people are starting to think that a party divided against itself is the last group of people to lead this country out of the quagmire in which the GOP has parked it.

but you don't have to listen to me. if you want to go ahead and continue to bloody each other up, by all means, continue. but when rush limbaugh (may he choke on his cigar) and bill o'reilly are doing the happy dance in november because we've shot ourselves in the foot in what might've been the most monumental presidential victory in this country's history, i hope your vitriol and venom will comfort you through the following four years. and that applies to clinton- AND obama-backers, because we're all guilty of it. it's just a question of how long we're gonna let it hold us back.

Who said? He said. They said? She said.

With apologies to the good Doctor, I offer ....

Did he say bad words?
No, he flipped no verbal birds.
So why all the fuss
about his pastor, Gus?

Should he control others' mouths?
In case they let slip a WoWse !!
Or is she to muzzle her man?
And put ole Bill in a can?

Others may say bad words all day
But that doesn't make it bad on they
"til someone sez from the other side
Sez "that was bad and oh so snide."

So she, not he, must apologize
And use the right words without any sighs
or ifs (god forbid) that she should say
and use condemn not re-pu-di-aye

The others' words are not the issue
Our nation's troubled, and needs a tissue.
And heaping bile on one another
Over little things, Oh brother!!

Will not help us come November
Against the cane of the pretender
Speak of issues, be positive
And to our brothers, goodness give.

Person County Democrats

I actively oppose gerrymandering. Do you?


Hey, I thought *I* had no shame when it came to doggerel, but this is . . . oh argh!!!

This is so punishment-worthy. This is like something that people get sent to Dante's inferno for doing. I'm thinking that you're bound to occupy the circle between people who wait seven seconds before moving forward on green and the one where they send folks who take six items through the "five items only" express line.

Repent, Persondem, repent.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

it's always

a bit embarrassing to have one's post better conveyed (and in rhyming verse, no less) by someone else.

nicely done. ^^

Obama's judgment

There's really only one issue of judgment that matters very much to me. Clinton voted to give Bush the power to start a war and has not yet apologized for that terrible mistake in judgment. Obama spoke strongly against it.

Many thousands of innocent human beings have died because of that mistake in judgment. This matter of attending a church with a lunatic pastor pales in comparison.

Amen to that

To keep things in the preacher context :-)

I've been away for several days.

Mostly judging high school students debate the Presidential Primary Process and whether or not it was counter to democratic values. On breaks from judging, instead of hanging out in the "cushy" judges lounge (read that as high school cafeteria), I hung out with kids from our team, helping them improve their timing, their professionalism, and their arguments.

After reading the incredible vitriol, maliciousness, and opprobrium that exists on this thread, by someone claiming to fully remember details of a Presidential election that occurred when they were ten years old makes me want to stay away from BlueNC and continue to hang out with High School Students who actually look up their facts and attempt to make arguments based on logic rather than emotion.

I heard better fact-based theories from actual 14 year olds than the emotion filled tripe on this thread.

Thank goodness for our young people, Democrats and Republicans alike, though after reading this monstrosity of multiple diatribes and responses, I am of a mind to encourage them to indeed, trust no one over the age of 30, including yours truly, for I got sucked into this morass. Do not register as part of a political party to be bound by partisan rules that leave you betraying your own Democratic Values by decrying the grassroots, calling each other names, and devalueing the opinions and votes of others.

Stay true, stay Democratic, and stay away from the adults. Follow your heart, listen with your minds, and stay unaffiliated so the so-called grown-ups don't suck you into their games.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi

I was almost 11

I guess not only do I have memories I have studied the 72 election in detail. Also,I had a good teacher, a grandmother that was not only a democratic activist, but an MD, and a 3 term member of the North Carolina General Assembly. She hated Jesse Helms and all he stood for.
You see, my family has had more than a passing interrest in democratic politics,and it has been a lifetime study for me.
We may not agree on this, but you would be shocked on how much we could agree on.
When I was that 10 year old kid I sent $10.00 to George McGovern.
I was the only kid in class that didn't vote for Nixon in the class vote.
You see, some of us have lived long enough to see this train wreck before
72 was a disaster, and those not willing to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.


otherwise known as daily obama, is hardly a source i would cite on the presidential race. and no, hillary has not abandoned nc, for the man who delivered california and ohio to hillary will manage her campaign in the state. perhaps i should broach a discussion of rezko at this blog.

You Should

And then you can explain...

...the Clinton connections to Rezko...

...and Norman Hsu...

...and David Rosen...

...and Richard Scruggs...

...and Whitewater...

Honest to blog, if there's ever a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

There are people in every time and every land who want to stop history in its tracks. They fear the future, mistrust the present, and invoke the security of the comfortable past which, in fact, never existed. - Robert F. Kennedy

There are people in every time and every land who want to stop history in its tracks. They fear the future, mistrust the present, and invoke the security of the comfortable past which, in fact, never existed. - Robert F. Kennedy


helped obama purcase his house. and obama did legal and political work for rezko's crumbling slum landlord empire. i can post a diary on this if you and others need to be educated on rezko's deep ties to the obamas.

i see you are a low information voter, a typical obamabot. it is too bad, for i would like to become involved here. thank you for demonstrating once again that obama's supporters are both vacuous and hostile.

Vacuous and hostile

If you'd really like to become involved here, you're going about it in a pretty weird way. Declaring that more than half of all Democrats nationally and a majority of those writing here to be both vacuous and hostile seems unlikely to help in your mission of getting "involved."


nctodc is anything but a low information voter. I'll stand up for your right to rant in a post, but when you're wrong, you're wrong and I'm calling you on this one.

Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

Did you watch the video?

You're willing to blow this off just because I found the links on Kos?


answer please

I'd like an answer to my question:
"When Obama is the nominee, will you vote for him?".

By the way, yes, I would vote for Hillary.


As I have been busy yesterday and part of today working on precinct meeting reports I haven't looked at this much.
As for your question, the only honest ansewer I can give now is I don't know.
In 1984, Reagan vs Mondale,I could not vote for either. I voted for everyone else on the ballot.
That may happen again this year. I will not vote against him, but I don't know if I can cast my vote for him.
But there is one flaw in your logic. You have already given him the nomination.
I wouldn't take that one to the bank just yet.

what logic?

But there is one flaw in your logic.

I don't know what logic you're talking about, I was just asking if you would vote for Obama if he was the Democratic nominee.
The answer seems to be a resounding no. Thanks for the honesty, but you can stop calling yourself a Democrat now.
Even if I wouldn't work my butt off for Hillary if she was the nominee, at least I would vote for her.

OK I will bite

Your post read

"WHEN Obama is the nominee,will you vote for him"
As for I can quit calling myself a democrat now just because I have problems with voting for Obama is just stupid.
Maybe you can come do the pricinct reports that are on my desk or run the fundraisers I have planned for several statewide and local candidates. This blog isn't the only place I am a democrat,I am on the gound working everyday.
I just guess when it comes to Obama, some of the yellow has washed off my yellow dog.

Simple fact.

I don't see why you would call yourself a Democrat if you're not even willing to vote for the Democratic presidential candidate. I don't think the yellow washed off, I think the dog ran away.

By the way, I'm hoping you don't want to get into some argument on which one of us does more for the Party or local candidates. If you'd knew me at all, you wouldn't even try winning that one.

Well maybe you can come help me cook tonight

Well maybe you will be able to come help me cook tonight at a fundraiser for a local candidate, or help tomorrow night at a statewide candidate function, or come Saturday to the voter forum in ANOTHER county that I am going to help with.
See ya there
I am not will to vote for anyone, dem, rep, goat that I don't believe should be President. It has nothing to do with being a democrat, and everything to do with being an American.

Okay. You win.

As king of this blog, I officially declare that you are the most committed and dedicated American among us and that you do more, care more and know more about democracy than all the rest of us put together. Congratulations.

Now answer me this. If the general election is between Obama and McCain, what will you do:

1. Vote for Obama
2. Vote for McCain
3. Write in Hillary
4. Abstain

Think carefully now. Because if your choice is number 2, you can pretty much count on being ignored (at best) and ridiculed (at second best) for the duration of your stay here. Just saying.

I call shenanigans

Right now my choice would be 3 or 4. As for me been oh so great an American or such, I am nor more so than many other democrats I know.However, I have a right to my view, as do you.We might not agree on this issue, but I bet we have more common ground than you would think and I would like to discuss it with you later in the week as work today and tomorrow is brutal.
With respect to your position, but still strongly set in mine.
PS- I don't want Cartman to have to get the broom after you.

Fair enough

I've been a total jerk lately, which happens less often than it used to. Thanks for hanging in there and keeping the conversation going. Let's come up with a new "positive" post for later in the week. I'm sure we agree about lots of things - and we have plenty of common experiences.

(I ran for office, too. Made it in once, but didn't get reelected because I was a pro-business extremist here in Chapel Hill. Or something like that.)


Pro-business in Chapel Hill, what were you thinking.

Chapel Hill, that place Jesse Helms wished the Soviet Union had nuked.
I love Chapel Hill, lived there as a kid when dad was in grad school.When to first grade at Estis Hills.
And Billy Arthur was so cool.
But pro-business in Chapel Hill......hell that is something like I would do.
Know alot of great people from there as well. The late Watts Hill and his lovely wife Mary, 2 of the most wonderful people I have ever known.

But for all that is wonderful in Chapel Hill, then there is that damn basketball team. But I will leave that one alone as that would worst than my first post.
My personal paradox is I love the School but lothe the team.I guess it come from being a long suffering State fan.
Frank Porter Graham is one of my personal heros.He did so much for this state, and that school.

As a state, we have much to be proud of in UNC, NC State, and Duke. Where else in the world are there 3 schools so close together that are at the level of excellence of those 3?

Good democrats, Terry Sanford being one, helped make those 3 schools great.
Frank Graham , Bill Friday, Erskin Bowles have and are still leaving their marks on the state schools.
Terry Sandford's legacy is still alive and well at Duke.

Democrats have always been good stewards of higher learning in this state, and that is a damn good legacy for any party.


I look forward to it.