According to Hoyle [Comments Closed]

According to the Charlotte Observer, state senator David Hoyle is thinking about retiring.

State Sen. David Hoyle, a Gaston County Democrat, had planned to announce this week whether he would run for his ninth two-year term. He said that scheduling conflicts have delayed his decision and he plans to take more time."One day, I say I'll go in for another term. Another day, I'm just tired," he said.

Hoyle, 68, was ranked the third most effective senator in Raleigh in the most recent survey of legislators, lobbyists and capitol journalists. He is co-chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, which oversees tax policy, and is a keystone of the Democrats' pro-business faction.

That would be the same pro-business faction we can thank for cutting taxes on rich North Carolinians while voting to continue a regressive sales tax increase across the board. The same pro-business faction that ignored coastal policy and voted to allow rich homeowners at Figure Eight island to "harden" their beach to protect their multimillion dollar homes. And the same pro-business faction that voted to give $40+ million in taxpayer dollars to two tire companies, one of which wasn't even asking for the handout.

Why don't we all send a nice little note to Mr. Hoyle, thanking him for his years of service, and explaining that We the People just can't afford him any more. Be polite, though, otherwise the power-hungry old man might just stick around to spite us.


you might not know this

what with facts and reading not being your strong suit, but Florida wasnt lost because of people voting for someone they believed in.

The vast majority of Nader voters were "new" voters; people who would not have voted at all if Nader wasnt running. The real reason we lost Florida in 2000 was because of Katherine Harris, Jeb Bush and the illegal disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands of voters.

"Keep the Faith"

"Keep the Faith"

You really need to stop beating this horse

'cuz it ain't goin' anywhere.

... you aren't a Democrat and would readily facilitate a Republican takeover of the legislature ...

I really don't think A. is out there phone banking, knocking on doors or promoting reps on this website or any other to try to help reps to take over the GA. And even if he is UNA, he's still a far better democrat (no offense A. :) ) than the thousands of dinos that inhabit NC.
You are inflating his questioning of the party (anyone's right) and his amicable correspondence with Orr into something it is not. In doing so you cast yourself in a rather negative, and rather Rovian, light.

Person County Democrats

I actively oppose gerrymandering. Do you?

Boy, NCAd, you do love a good flame fest.

You know ... I'll ignore the fact that the admins of a blog can say any dang thing they dang well please and if you had half their talent you'd have your own just as active, dynamic, well-read and informative blog yourself.

What I can't ignore is this ... I don't really "know" Anglico. I've met James a couple times but I don't know him well enough to speak for him. However, I have read everything (nearly) he's written here and I can with confidence say that everything you, NCAd., wrote in this line

who read this webpage understand that you aren't a Democrat and would readily facilitate a Republican takeover of the legislature as did the Naderites who felt Al Gore was no different than George W. Bush in 2000.

is totally false and I think you know it.

It's is our job, it is a county party officers' job, it is James' job, it is the duty of every politically engaged citizen to challenge the other party's false assertions. That's the part you no doubt like about blueNC. Unfortunately, it appears that what you don't like is the other part of our job. You'd rather everyone with a D by their name get a free pass no matter how they vote or what they do. No ... sorry, we're Democrats, not Repubicans. It is equally our job to challenge those within our own party to be better servants of the people, better stewards of the people's money, and thereby to be better Democrats by representing the interests of their voting constituents at least as well as they represent the interests of their big money and corporate donor constituents.

"They took all the trees and put them in a tree museum Then they charged the people a dollar 'n a half just to see 'em. Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you've got till it's gone? They paved paradise and put up a parking lot."

I wish David Hoyle

Would stick around to spite y'all.

Bet he does

Believe me, it crossed my mind that an appeal from the communist fringe might strengthen his resolve to run again.

Come on now, A., you need to make up your mind. (j/k)

Are you a rabid commie or a radical fascist in bed with republicans?

Or is the usual left/right linear political spectrum really a mobius loop?
(it looks like it has two sides, really is one side, arranged so that if you follow it, you never really get anywhere.)

Person County Democrats

I actively oppose gerrymandering. Do you?

That is why

I didnt email him.

"Keep the Faith"

"Keep the Faith"

The Queen of Denial

Leslie H, Why don't you address the points made here? I have no problem with criticizing policies not consistent with core Democratic beliefs. However, Anglico went far beyond criticism of certain positions taken by a particular Democrat. He oversimplified David Hoyle's voting record and advocated that progressives directly request his retirement. Consider the following points previously made:

1. The majority of positions supported by Senator David Hoyle are consistent with the core beliefs of members of the Democratic Party.

2. If Senator Hoyle retires, the Republicans have a clear path to taking over the North Carolina Senate in 2008.

3. The majority of positions taken by Republican gubernatorial candidate Robert Orr are consistent with the core beliefs of members of the Republican Party and yet Anglico sings his praises because of a few issues where Orr arguably is progressive

4. Naderites rejected Al Gore as not being pro-environment enough and considered him to be the same as George W. Bush so they voted for the person who allegedly was principled with integrity, Ralph Nader and gave this country to the far right for the past 7 years.

5. Anglico calls for David Hoyle to retire even if it creates a real possibility for the Republicans to takeover the Senate based upon the same reaasoning the Naderites cast rheir vote for Nader instead of Al Gore in 2000.

6. Anglico has attempted to switch his registration to unaffiliated and alludes to the possibility he may still do so.

How have Anglicoites responded?

LCloud: And you can kiss my donkey, too.

Brunette Maybe you're right. Maybe. But just as juries will fool us, so will the electorate. To pretend there's a hard and fast formula for prediction is fun -- and foolhardy

Brunette: Hoyle is hypocrite, and I'd sooner vote for a person of integrity with whom I disagree than a person like Hoyle, who represents nothing so much as the idea of holding power.

Loft: I believe I could and would vote for a Republican if her/his values aligned more closely with mine. Parties only matter if they reflect the people who care enough to participate in them.

Anglico: Who gives a hoot whether I'm a Democrat or not and why does it matter

Maxthedog2: You do understand that you are chatting with "Exxon" John Hood evil twin ncasshole! He must be bored again and still piss at this site for cleaning his clock everytime he sneaks in here.....So "Exxon" What is your hot topic on NC spin tomorrow? "Should those progressive communists at BlueNC be tase or waterboard for offending the 1 st amendment?"

Blue South: what with facts and reading not being your strong suit, but Florida wasnt lost because of people voting for someone they believed in.

PersonDem: You are inflating his questioning of the party (anyone's right) and his amicable correspondence with Orr into something it is not.

Anglico: For a couple of weeks I thought I was unaffiliated. It was weird. On one hand I really liked it, on the other I felt less free to criticize the party. So when my registration came back, I considered it a sign to rethink my position, which I am currently doing. Unaffiliated is looking better and better.

I rest my case

You could have written all those points up at the top and just never come back, because when people refute you all you do is post the same thing, and then ignore everything they said to refute you, just posting their intros as if nothing else was written.

You are a waste of time.

"Keep the Faith"

"Keep the Faith"


Now I'm an "Anglicoite?"

How ya figure that, NCAdv?

Someone who disagrees with you is an "Anglicoite?" Or does one get to be an "Anglicoite" simply by agreeing with Anglico?

That would make me a Burkian, too right, since I have a quote of his beneath my signature. Oh dear, Burke was a conservative, and I am not. What a pickle. And I reckon I have to be called Meekerophile since I voted for Meeker, and a Clintonite (Clintonista?) since I voted for Clinton.

In any event, I'm glad to stand by my statements regarding Hoyle. I don't think this means I have to change parties.

(Ever hear of Joe Sinseheimer?)

I'm still mystified by your assertion, which you seem to think is self-evident, that Hoyle's failure to run inevitably results in his replacement by a Republican.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

Yup, it's happened to you, Brunette,

just like it happened to all of us, here.

You have been assimilated. You are now part of... The Anglico.

:::giant eyeroll::

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi

Political Science: politics based on science not faith

Here are two key races from 2004 involving Gaston County. Show me where a non-incumbent Democrat has defeated a Republican in Gaston County since 2000. Tell me how a Democrat will win an open seat here if Hoyle retires.

2004 Presidential Election results in Gaston County North Carolina:

Bush / Cheney (Rep.) (68%)Kerry / Edwards (Dem.) (32%)Other (0%)
Bush/Cheney (Republican): 67.8%
Kerry/Edwards (Democratic): 31.8%

Updated: 5:36 p.m. ET
33,882 53% 100% of precincts reporting
28,960 45%
976 2%

Move on

Move on Hoyle. Retire. Be done with the bidding of others. The Rs will gain the seat but so be it.

Al Manning, retiree, native of eastern NC and proud of it, plenty of time to read, research and get annoyed about the lack of accountability in elected leaders these days. Married to a real southern lady and we live with two labs and two airedales who run

very true

By my arithmetic, I see us losing, Dalton, Queen, Goss, Foriest, Hoyle (if he retires), Boseman (quite possibly), and Kerr (if he retires). With Soles you can never tell and Hagan's seat can go back to the Republicans very easily.

Using NC Advocate's "logic"

none of the people you've listed are good Democrats because they're putting control of the NC Senate at risk.

It's all coming clear to me now.


How is Goss, Foriest, Queen, Boseman putting the Democratic majority at risk? They represent districts that lean heavily Republican and have been held by Republicans for a long time.

There is a major difference between wanting to serve the people of North Carolina in new ways, or retiring, than actively wishing a Democratic member of the legislature retire because they aren't "Democratic enough" on the issues that matter to you.

I'm sorry, but you are just wrong.

The problem here

Is the assumption that no progressive can win a Republican district. The assumption is that to win in "red" areas you have to be as far right as possible to win.

Its absurd.

Voters respect politicians who actually believe in something and say what they believe in and vote that way. This country and this state are full of examples of people who have won conservative districts by simply being themselves.

Guess who held Boseman's district before her. Here is a hint, it wasnt a DINO. It was an actual honest to God Republican. And she won by working hard and being honest about how she would vote. She isnt a liberal, but she also isnt all that conservative. And if she continues working as hard as she has the last few years she will be rewarded with another reelection victory

"Keep the Faith"

"Keep the Faith"

Yes, it was Ballantine

But that doesn't change anything. Boseman isn't a progressive Democrat. She is a moderate. and I'm getting sick of people claiming that the voters will vote for a Progessive because they are honest. That is complete nonsense, you know it, I know it and everyone knows it.


Its nonsense?

What do the pundits cite as the number one reason Bush beat Gore and Kerry? Likeability. More voters liked him, and more voters trusted him to stick to his position, even though in many cases they disagreed with him.

What is the thing that George Lakoff and Karl Rove agree on? "Talk about values". They both believe that candidates who talk about what they believe in can overcome any disagreement that voters might have on specifics.

Personally I would trust the two of them over you.

"Keep the Faith"

"Keep the Faith"

Likeability ain't the same as honesty

In fact, I think folks frequently don't like honesty. They like the wink,wink, nudge, nudge variety of politics as long as they think they're in on the joke. It isn't honesty they like. It's mob-mentality.

Bush appealled to a lot of people by encouraging their worst fears. The word "values" is a frequently used euphemism for "prejudices," when uttered by Rove and his ilk.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

The Future is Now in 2008 for Continued Democratic Control

There is a big difference between New Hanover County and Gaston County. Easley carred New Hanover County over Ballentine. Ballentine carried Gaston over Easley. If simply running as an honest progressive is the answer, then I suggest LCloud run against Harris Blake next year. Anglico and his supporters can raise money and let's see how well she does. Harris Blake can be defeated but only by a conservative Democrat. LCloud wouldn't stand a prayer even with $250,000.00.

Boseman votes very similar to David Hoyle but I don't see Anglico and his ilk calling for her resignation. ( She is an excellent Senator who should enjoy our continued support on many levels) On the minimum wage, she voted with Hoyle to exempt 18 and 19 year olds from receiving the increase that was to be provided to the remaining workforce. Fortunately progressive Democrats successfully fought against such an exclusion.

Blue South, David Hoyle isn't far right. He has voted for many progressive iniatives not supported by the Republicans. He will go to New Hanover County andcampaign for Julia Boseman if she requests for him to do so. We are fortunate that he has been able to win in a district that George W. Bush carried 2-1. I don't disagree that districts can change and that is certainly what has happened in New Hanover County. But as aforementioned, Gaston County is not New Hanover County and in every major statewide race since at least 2000 the Republican candidate has defeated the Democratic candidate.

Anglco, do you think your last comment was an inciteful point? You lost the credibility that you enjoyed in Democratic circles when you announced you were unaffiliated. Now you are in quicksand and can't figure a way to get out. I would suggest that you have an epiphany and realize that politics isn't simply about ideas but also how you achieve power to further those ideas. You do a good job of articulating quality reasoning on issues but you remain weak on how to be successful in advancing progressive policy positions.

Now see here . . .

You just can't use a word like "inciteful" (surely you meant "insightful") and then tell someone he has lost credibility. I realize spelling isn't everyone's strong suit, and I really do try not to nitpick about the poor spelling and grammar I see on this and other blogs, but you did couple the use of a nonexistent word ("Inciteful!" Oh please!) with an accusation about credibility. Consider this post a mild slap on the fanny with a ruler.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke


I thought the Advocate was making a clever play on words, but perhaps I am overly generous.

Quit it.

If simply running as an honest progressive is the answer, then I suggest LCloud run against Harris Blake next year. Anglico and his supporters can raise money and let's see how well she does. Harris Blake can be defeated but only by a conservative Democrat. LCloud wouldn't stand a prayer even with $250,000.00.

Everyone has their role to play. Mine isn't running for Senate - even in your little dream world of progressives getting their asses handed to them in elections. Please stop this scenario, ok? Please. Just quit it.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi

It ain't a dream

outside of certain districts it is far from a dream. I think in the real world it is called reality.

Good luck.


Three emails today

From three long-standing and loyal Democrats. Each would be happy to see Hoyle replaced, even if it meant a moderate Republican took his seat.

One asked why we put up with people like NC Advocate. (Answer: We are a big-tent kind of place.)

The plot sickens.

Moderate Republican?

Surely you jest. You'll get a Republican on the lines of Andrew Brock.

I don't jest.

I'm reporting what three email correspondents communicated to me this morning. I think their main point was, shall we say, a deep lack of appreciation for Mr. Hoyle's leadership.

Moderate Republican

I'm saying I do not think you'll get a moderate republican in that seat if Hoyle retires. It will be a hard-line conservative.

Return to Sender

Well, Anglco, I'm curious what did those 3 loyal Democrats think about your disloyalty? Remember you are only a Democrat because you had insufficient postage,

LCloud, I will respect your request.. I do appreciate that you are serving as a party official.. It is imperative that you and others find a candidate to run next year. The seat can be won.

Those three loyal Democrats

took the time to write to me personally, using their own names, to say that they share my point of view on the Hoyle issue. Unlike you, they could care less why I'm a Democrat - or even if I'm a Democrat. And they all think you're full of shit.

Which brings me to a few questions I've been wanting to ask.

Who are you?
How do I know you're really a Democrat?
How long have you been a Democrat?
How much money have you given to Democrats in the past 16 years?
How about in the last two years?
How many fundraisers have you held for Democratic candidates?
How much money have you raised for Democratic candidates in the past four years?

You may answer the questions off-line if you like, or you can come out from behind your smarmy little curtain and do publicly. Either way is fine. But until they're answered, consider yourself non-existent.

money isn't the end all

Not many people have fists of dollars sitting around that they can donate.

Who said it was the end all?

You don't need money to host a fundraiser. I've hosted dozens without spending a nickel - all I spent was my time.

GED graduates need not participate here

Brunette, It is not uncommon for the elitist far right to nitpick over spelling on a blog when they are losing the argument. God forbid, the less educated participate here. I guess I shouldn't expect any different behavior from elitists on the left who are no different in their arrogance as elitists on the right. .

Hmm, Anglico, you can dish it out, but its clear you are having a hard time taking it......

Now now now

I am only moderately elitist.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing
-Edmund Burke

Webmaster for NCBlue On the Defensive

My my Anglico, you mean to tell me I must give up my anonymity or I'm non-existent? You have never made that challenge to anyone. have you? You will figure out who I am at some point. You would be surprised at how much we agree on policy matters. However, I just see you as another Naderite willing to give power to the far right. Here in the real world outside of Chapel Hill it does make a difference in the lives of working people that Democrats maintain a majority in the General Assembly And you know something most people in Chapel Hill understand the importance of Democratic Party loyalty.

Rob Christensen did it.

It's become a ploy of the lunatic right-wing fringe to refer to BlueNC as NCBlue. Maybe it's catching on among the lunatic Democratic mainstream, too.


I should have known only the most inept political reporter would call this website that.

Unless of course.....

obvious comment about who the commenter might be left blank to protect the innocent.

One of the pitfalls of childhood is that one doesn't have to understand something to feel it. - Carlos Ruiz Zafon

Jesus Swept ticked me off. Too short. I loved the characters and then POOF it was over.


it's BlueNC, not NCBlue. Someone else recently made that mistake, but I can't for the life of me remember who it was.

I don't think Anglico can be called the webmaster - he's not involved in the actual web-spinning that keeps the place running. That would be Lance, who is hardly ever here anymore, wouldn't it? I miss Lance.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi

Besty now

I help, but Betsy is the web mistress.

- - - - -
Thomas Jefferson said you always get the rulers you deserve.

Ah, that's right.

Off topic - but I just met Betsy face to face for the first time. :-D Yay to someone who is my height!

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi

I would make a joke

but I know better than to mess with Betsy.

"Keep the Faith"

"Keep the Faith"

You haven't met me yet

or Betsy would be the least of your worries. :-P

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi