What is the Democratic Party's responsibility? [Thread Closed]

After reading A's post on KOS and after reading Justing's post regarding Dole/Hagan/Neal...and more importantly, the comments, I started to wonder what it takes to get people upset enough to do something about the Democratic Party, it's leadership, and the Democrats we've elected who don't represent our interests.

One comment particularly caught my eye This one and this particular statement .....

This is what ideologues don't understand. You run on principle when at all practical, but in some cases it's not and you have to take what you can get. Heath Shuler votes more in your favor than any Republican ever would. Either take what you can from him or get nothing

(emphasis mine) REALLY FROSTED ME...and here's why:

Most of the people who visit BlueNC are smarter than your average bear, and are aware when their own views do or do not represent the views of a majority of others. Hence, although they/we may get frothed over the way our congress-critters vote on an issue now and then, we understand we're not always going to be satisfied on every issue. Conversely, there are some things we think all Americans should hold sacred, or are otherwise so important and so abundantly and fundamentally important to our nation that no one...regardless of party... should be playing politics with these concepts.

In my mind, these include respecting and defending our Constitution and Bill of Rights, maintaining the appropriate balance of power between the three branches of our government, enforcing our laws and the rule of law and common decency, ensuring our food and medical supplies and ingredients are safe, making sure our borders, ports, and transportation systems are safe and secure, maintaining strong, nimble and well equipped armed forces recruited from, and representative of, all socio-economic classes of our citizenry, and properly caring for those, and their families, who have given of themselves in service to our nation. And, these things should be done in a fiscally responsible manner that strengthens rather than weakens our nation.

Yes, there are other things currently also very important...but to me, the above is the core from which we build solutions to our other problems.

Now, best I can tell, my Congressman hasn't done much to consistently support those concepts and has often torn down those core values with his votes. (The same is true of our Senators.) You can decide about your own critter.

Further, the Democratic Party hasn't stood on principle in longer than I can remember. My county party refused to vote on a resolution that would have criticized a certain elected state legislative representative who is obviously swimming in the sewer. Jim Black operated freely for years while the party knew about and essentially ignored his corruption. Neither the District or State Party has, to my knowledge, taken exception with the Democrats that voted to gut our Constitution and the Geneva Conventions, nor has anyone in the Party confronted any of these folks about how our veterans are being treated. Rule of Law? Phfttt! Balance of power? Phftttt! Secure Borders? Safe Food and Medicine? Phfttt...phfttt...phfttt!

And, not trying to take it out of context, you tell me/us that we should "Either take what you can from him or get nothing" ??? Excuse Me?

Either the Democratic Party confronts and resolves these issues with their elected representatives, or it isn't a party worth supporting. It's more important to fill the seats we win with good people than to win every seat.

(Schumer and Feinstein will likely prove that point next week when they vote to confirm a man as AG whom, if you were to believe his testimony, you'd also have to believe he hasn't read a newspaper in over two years.)

That's my two cents...and I'm not happy.


that's a good point

I just wanted to point out that some of us take such things personally, as members of the NCDP. We're not all faceless cigar-chomping back-room dealers you know... So lobbing bombs at the party in general includes a lot of well-meaning progressives, such as myself.

I see it this way.

Since I am a member of the Party - I have the right to throw rocks at it if I think it's necessary. I work hard for Democratic causes and candidates. That gives me the right to call bullshit - on the party or on individual members - if I see fit. And since I live in a place where there are fewer of us than there are of them - I've developed a thick skin when it comes to bombs lobbed by others, either from within or without.

If you're part of a Party - you've got to accept that sometimes rocks are going to be thrown. You gotta learn to separate yourself from the things that draw the rocks, and work like hell to eliminate them.

Be the change you wish to see in the world. --Gandhi

I've been considering this remark, persondem, and several of

your other comments. Here's my final take on what you've had to say.

You're full of shit.

My original question was what the Party's responsibility was...as it related to having a role in influencing elected representatives to support issues/legislation (which I defined as core issues) that were important to sustaining our republic and clearly in the best interests of the citizenry. I gave numerous examples of how my own congress-wimp had failed and how others have also failed.

I said I was "frosted" that someone would advise that I should be happy with whatever I can get from elected Democrats because I would get even less from elected Republicans.

I suggested (for discussion) the Party had a role and a responsibility to not bury its head in the sand after folks were elected...and to use the power of the party to cause elected representatives to pay attention to their constituents...or to take a stand when elected officials were clearly involved in questionable activities.

And I suggested that, to my knowledge, the Party had not done much in those regards. I said:

Either the Democratic Party confronts and resolves these issues with their elected representatives, or it isn't a party worth supporting. It's more important to fill the seats we win with good people than to win every seat.

You've responded, not with reasoned arguments as to why you think I'm wrong, but with claims of "exaggerated rhetoric" and

" You sound like a petulant four year old throwing a tantrum. Your post is so full of exaggerations and unsupported accusations as to be mostly unworthy of comment."

The only exaggerated rhetoric has been your own...and what you deemed "mostly unworthy of comment" has in fact been worthy of considerable discussion...unfortunately diluted and hijacked by your own need to verbally jerk off as you defended the Party against "virtual grenades" and "sniper rifles." and attacked me for allegations & criticisms I never made...but which you chose to infer (Waxman, Miller, etc.).with your broad brush of defensive hyperbole.

Like Anglico, I've been a long time supporter of progressive causes and the defense of our nation against collaspe from within...by the excesses and stupidity of those we've elected. Never, since World War II, have we been in such danger of losing America as we are today. Our Constitution has indeed been gutted, our food supplies and medical supplies are tainted, we are in debt way over our heads, and our poor and middle classes are under assault by the very people we chose to represent us. That is not exaggeration...it's a fact.

If the Democratic Party, as an institution, cannot or will not take an active and palpable role in supporting the causes deemed important by a majority of Democrats...or take an active role in pressing our elected representatives to take immediate and principled action to repair the damage, then the Party is, or soon will become, irrelevant.

Rather than viewing criticisms and unsettling questions as a attack, both poitical and personal, Democratic Party leadership should view them as alarms and warnings that things are not going well....and make a course correction.

If. like you, other Party leaders not only ignore those who are critical but also attack them as disloyal, this Party is doomed. I wrote Jerry several times recently disagreeing with what I viewed as efforts to de-secularize the Party and go down the Republican path of associating politics with religion. He disageed. He's the Chair...that's his privilege.

Here's my privilege...to say I'm not going to participate in this charade. Ah....no big deal. I'm not even a ripple on the sea. Except...over the past 18 months or so we've donated into five figures to Democratic Candidates and the Party...we've organized monthly luncheons for local actiivists and promoted the party thru good deeds for the community...and actually travelled to far away places to support our Democratic candidates. We've held fundraisers and GOTV sessions...and stood in the rain all day handing out voter palm cards (Last November) to help ensure people knew who the Democratic Candidates for Judgeships (not marked on the ballots) were.

And you...well, you're the antithesis of the type of leadership that motivates me. Bombastic, disputatious, threatening and destructive. Take a hike.

Stan Bozarth

My apologies to the readers of BlueNC. This may be rough.

Parents, parts of the following may not be suitable for children.

I just got a package from Amazon.com. It contained two books on solar/sustainable energy, Faith & Politics by John Danforth, Desolation Angels by Jack Kerouac, Panzer Leader by Heinz Guderian and Michael Moore's Sicko in DVD.

Point being ... you don't know shit about me. I am just words on a screen. Here are some of your words.

the Democratic Party hasn't stood on principle in longer than I can remember.

Now assuming that you really are more than four years old, the above takes in a lot of territory both in people and in time. That is the grenade I keep refering to. I could list many, many times in the last 40 or so years that some democrat or group of democrats have stood on principle, but I will just mention one. In 2003 the SEC voted down the party establishment candidate and instead elected Jerry Meek as NCDP Chair. That's a vote I am proud of. It's a time that the NCDP stood on principle, and I am pretty sure you remember it well. But it just slipped your mind when you wrote the above line, huh?

The genesis of your OP was the comment concerning Shuler. You generalized (pay attention to that word) it to be some kind of endorsement for wholesale compromise on the part of the The Democratic Party. You got "frosted" and admit in a later comment that you were tired when you typed the OP. HHmmmm ... Tired+Frosted+Keyboard tends to equal Rant. Or shall we say a post with rant-like tendancies. You weren't looking for discussion, that would take presenting both sides of the issue, all you did was go on about how bad the Democratic Party is and it's apparent responsibility for all the ills of the country. No you were looking for folks to come and blow smoke up your ass agreeing with you. As soon as someone didn't, .... well the temerity, that person must be put in his place.

Some more words of yours:

Rule of Law? Phfttt! Balance of power? Phftttt! Secure Borders? Safe Food and Medicine? Phfttt...phfttt...phfttt!

So you are spitting, blowing a raspberry or something, kind of like a ... (wait for it) .... like a four year old throwing a tantrum. For Chirssakes man, you think that passes for insightful commentary designed to stir reasoned debate??? Oh, I am sure the Pulitzer committe had a collective orgasm at those words and a nomination is on its way to you as I type.
On top of that you are saying that the whole democratic party is spitting on all the above. Quite the generalization, eh? Perhaps a bit rant-like.
You drew first blood with that insult. I ain't taking it. I admitted that the party is far from perfect with some dems, elected and otherwise, pulling unprincipled shit. I gave you an opportunity for agreement when I mentioned the virtual sniper rifle being ok .
But you became so obsessed with anything from me being evil that you can't even read.

More of your words:

you defended the Party against "virtual grenades" and "sniper rifles."

Wrong asshole. This is what I said:

If you want to take a virtual sniper rifle to those who have less than progressive voting records go for it.

emphasis added.

So you see I am NOT "rabid"-ly defending the party from all attacks, just the broad generalized and exaggerated variety.

You mentioned three dems by name in your post - Black, Feinstein and Shumer and then made reference to some unnamed people - your congressman, and a couple of party entities, county and district.
You made vague reference to some wrongs that few readers could have any knowledge of. Point being that that is very weak support for the kind of allegations you were making. Allegations like allowing the gutting of the Constitution.

In my previous post I adopted a rather conciliatory tone, and got more shit back from you, you pompous ass. (Turnabout is fairplay.)

You wanted examples of your exaggerations; I showed you four. Oh, but that's just my "spin" which you made no attempt to refute. For "spin" read, inconvenient truth.

You may have done good things for the party in the past, great, wonderful, but that does not give you the right to undermine the party as a whole.
Opinions it would seem are something only you and those who agree with you are entitled to.

Let's see after "rabid", "pompous ass", "pissant", "full of shit" here are
some of your closing words in reference to me:

Bombastic, disputatious, threatening and destructive

In the context of this thread I'll accept disputatious, but the others are just more exaggerations and generalizations which is exactly what I initially wrote to complain about in your OP. The circle is now complete, so for me and this thread it's

Alpha ... Mike ... Foxtrot

Person County Democrats

I actively oppose gerrymandering. Do you?

OK...so Stan and Persondem are NOT going to be best buddies

My tongue is bleeding from biting it so hard when responding to that person I've been dealing with and I can't even remember the words to Kumbaya so I can lead us in a round.

The good news is, I learned a new word....disputatious. I just hope I use it in the correct context.

Oh, and Persondem...I'm currently reading Desolation Angels. I am enjoying it immensely, though I tend to daydream when I'm reading Kerouac and I have to read pages over and over again.

Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.

You sound like a petulant four year old.

You wrote these words.

They are the reason this thread moved this from a heated debate over the role of the Democratic Party to a train wreck of personal assaults.

For me, this has been like watching that wreck unfold in slow motion and not being able to do anything to stop it. I thought about deleting the whole freakin' discussion a couple of times, but decided to leave it for posterity. There's bound to be some value for future generations who look back and wonder "what the hell were those people thinking?"

Sorry you're leaving.

Oh no, sweetie...never delete

We can close the thread, though.

Robin Hayes lied. Nobody died, but thousands of folks lost their jobs.

Vote Democratic! The ass you save may be your own.